And when you start and eventually do fade, another scripture comes to mind: "All this I have told you so that you will not go astray. They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, a time is coming when anyone who kills you will think he is offering a service to God. They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me." John 16:1-3 NIV. Has anyone experienced that? All you have to be is marked, let alone DAd or DFd. So perhaps before one fades, the wisdom of Micah 7:5 seems to apply. Thanks for that scripture.
stirred but not shaken
JoinedPosts by stirred but not shaken
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A scripture that sums up what awake/fading JWs must endure.
by BU2B injust thought i would share.
it hit home.. .
put no trust in a friend, have no confidence in a loved.
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JW.org to be regarded as fulfillment of the signs of the last days.
by jwfacts ini struggled as a jw to accept that the good news of the kingdom was ever going to be preached in all the inhabited world by jws, as there were many parts of the world with few to no jws.
there are not enough to cover the 3 billion plus people in asia to allow everyone to get a chance to hear the message.
it also was offensive to me that jehovah would kill those billions that had never had a chance to accept the watchtower message.
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stirred but not shaken
For those of us who remember the 3 to 8 min. sermon and the placing of 3 books for $1.50, the Wt. & Aw subscription campaign (K.H. thermometer and all), evening dd witnessing before the bookstudy... will probably recall how much hype there was announced at the DCs about what has been accomplished. Like literature stacked multiple times as high as the Empire State Bldg. and mass baptisms. These were signs that the work was being accomplished and the Kingdom would soon be taking over earth's affairs. It was immediately imminent.
Of course that was 50 years ago or so. To those in attendance at those large DCs, it seemed very real. The preaching work was being accomplished, if not already reaching it's climax. We had a part in the separting work. It was a remarkable fulfillment of Bible prophecy. We all believed that. Fast forward to 2014. The measuring device (Empire State Bldg.) will have to be changed to some cyber space device, but the hype will remain the same... "look at what Jehovah is accomplishing"! The world is being put on notice..again. Reality is that while there is no end to the rhetoric of the advancement of the preaching work, how many people really know what that message has been or is presently. What do you think a survey would reveal? Just ask my neighbors down my road, let alone those in remote places where literacy is a challenge. So the message (adjusted) might be getting published then and now, has little or no retention because nobody knows what it is. Pity the person who has but one opportunity and is given a witness by bro. or sis. disshoveled (few teeth missing and generally unkempt with poor verbal skills..I know of several like that). But they read a scripture, offer the literature and now it's up to you.
To believe that the world has received a witness to Jehovah's satisfaction with just that scenario is a precious leap in faith.
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George Storrs (early Russell associate) had some class
by stirred but not shaken infrom the book "a separate identity" p.248 & 249 by schulz and de vienne there is a quote from storrs that is prefaced this way: this wasn't the first time barbour and storrs had clashed.
though not naming barbour, after the 1874 failure storrs addressed barbour's dictatorial exclusivity and failed predictions:.
"teachers who manifest a disposition to exalt self and make it appear that they are something remarkable, are unmistakably false teachers.
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stirred but not shaken
Londo. For sure! Adjustments, progressive light and listen obey and be blessed, would have had Storrs exasperated. The cursory mention of him in the Proclaimers book gives but sparse information. His rebukes about setting dates and remarks like the one mentioned earlier will never be published in a WT publication, unless it's about some other group. He was, as it would appear, a sincere truth seeker not afraid to be wrong and would accept correction if justified.
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George Storrs (early Russell associate) had some class
by stirred but not shaken infrom the book "a separate identity" p.248 & 249 by schulz and de vienne there is a quote from storrs that is prefaced this way: this wasn't the first time barbour and storrs had clashed.
though not naming barbour, after the 1874 failure storrs addressed barbour's dictatorial exclusivity and failed predictions:.
"teachers who manifest a disposition to exalt self and make it appear that they are something remarkable, are unmistakably false teachers.
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stirred but not shaken
From the book "A Separate Identity" p.248 & 249 by Schulz and de Vienne there is a quote from Storrs that is prefaced this way: This wasn't the first time Barbour and Storrs had clashed. Though not naming Barbour, after the 1874 failure Storrs addressed Barbour's dictatorial exclusivity and failed predictions:
"Teachers who manifest a disposition to exalt self and make it appear that they are something remarkable, are unmistakably false teachers. Whether this is done by words or deeds it is the same thing: they "seek their own, not the things that are Jesus Christ's (Phil ii. 21). This is the case with all who set themselves up for prophets; claiming to be somebody with special authority to command obedience to their teaching, and denouncing such as do not comply with their claims, though they can give no demonstration of Divine commission by miracles or otherwise. Such person, not unfrequently (sic) give something like prophetic utterances to amaze and astonish those duped by them, and when their prophecies fail, they, with amazing impudence, attribute the failure to something else than their folly, and invent another prophecy equally absurd, to continue their power over those who have unhappily fallen under their influence."
Storrs was once a Millerite, as was Barbour, but abondoned them after the "Great Disappointment". He obviously took a more balanced and practical course. He was disappointed in the relationship between Barbour and Russell. He should have been around to editorialize on what became of the ISBA and the now followers of Wt. teachings.
Reading this book details many of Russsell's early associates, but Storrs stands for truth as he could find it and express it.
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I know 2 of the Elders on the Ray Franz JC
by James Jackson inwhen i read coc, i was stunned that the 2 elders (theotis french & rob dibble) were on ray franz judcial committee.
i have known these men for over 20 years having done rbc and convention work with them.
they are still elders today which means they were in their early 30's(which is unheard of for a case of this importance to have inexperienced elders to sit on) on this committee.. without revealing myself, i have never tried(but have wanted to), ask them about their on having to judge a former gb member.. then out of the blue, about a year ago, i was mentioning how hard it is trying to get younger ones to volunteer to one of these elders, and he says"this is nothing compared to to sitting on the committee that had to disfellowship ray franz".
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stirred but not shaken
Dis Member. Have you tried this appoach yourself or know of anyone that has, and were the results positive? I know what you're saying, and it would seem like the right thing to do...but..I really don't want to derail this thread, but feel that "response" is very relavant. I'd be looking for a favorable or positive response. It took knowledge, tact and other learned techniques to convince them to change and accept our theology and convert. That was the "prize" we sought. The difference now is, that they know you've defected in some way and they have been warned by the constant flow of information from the org and other friends, that you are to be held at a distance even if you haven't been DFd or DAd. Since I and others like me are interested in helping them see the real truth,.. knowledge, tact and technique are still good tools, and to be used to get positive results. Being abrupt and forthright may not get the desired response, in fact it will likely deepen their resolve. From my own experience, I would have put up a walled, immoveable, defense, had I been approached by one of my long time mentors intent on exposing "my beloved organization". Unfortunately we're in a delemma that is, to say the least, frustrating. Something has to set their alarm off, and to initiate that successfully is the technique I, for one, would welcome. I have literally hundreds of friends and at least 75 relatives involved with this organization and would like nothing more that to help them "see the light".
JJ is probably experiencing something similar. In my opinion, you can't just tell your wife that her new dress makes her butt look big. It may be true, but you won't get the desired response. Perhaps if you installed a 3 part, full length mirror, she would see it for herself. I'm hoping that mirror finds it's way into a few of those loved ones posession.
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I know 2 of the Elders on the Ray Franz JC
by James Jackson inwhen i read coc, i was stunned that the 2 elders (theotis french & rob dibble) were on ray franz judcial committee.
i have known these men for over 20 years having done rbc and convention work with them.
they are still elders today which means they were in their early 30's(which is unheard of for a case of this importance to have inexperienced elders to sit on) on this committee.. without revealing myself, i have never tried(but have wanted to), ask them about their on having to judge a former gb member.. then out of the blue, about a year ago, i was mentioning how hard it is trying to get younger ones to volunteer to one of these elders, and he says"this is nothing compared to to sitting on the committee that had to disfellowship ray franz".
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stirred but not shaken
Dis-Member. I'm in a similar situation. Served with extensive priveleges for many years and helped many "into the truth". At least a half a dozen became elders, and all became good friends. They're just as indoctrinated as I was. When I meet them now by accident, they're uncomfortable and make an awkward attempt to converse. The "switch" has gone on. It's called Satan alert. CAUTION! So I'm wondering what kind of response you think you'd get if you went back to all those that you studied with and tried to reverse what you had taught them? JJ is doing some balancing. Coming off as a raging apostate, or even a calm one, will close if not slam the door. You gotta pick your time and place..and that ain't easy.
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I want to know. Don't you?
by Old Goat insome of you are probably a bit tired of me promoting these history books, but im doing it again.
1. nelson barbour: the millenniums forgotten prophet.
de vienne is not.
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stirred but not shaken
OG..Thanks for keeping this alive. Hopefully others here will see the importance of having their facts straight before engaging in mud slinging regarding Russell. His thinking, ideas and teaching was like so many others of that time. They didn't all agree, in fact they seldom agreed, but they were hospitable (with some exceptions) and even published each others views. Men like Barbour, Stettson, Storrs, Thomas(responsible for the Christadelphian movement), etc., were involved in dialogs that would often take pendulum type swings as world events changed.
As you point out, they call out Zydek, a so called specialist on Wt. history for his inaccuracies. It was suggested to me to read his writing when I began to search, and I know that I repeated what I read to others. But it was not accurate. Now I have egg on my face. The authors of Separate Identity are far more faithful in their research and reproduce the documentation for the reader.
It is a long read. As JWs we were not used to that. As it is, I learned from my experience with Zydek and others, not to make statements that can't be verified. It makes the Wt. dissenter (honest or otherwise) appear what the org wants others to believe - spiteful, hateful liars.
I think it's evident that I would recommend the book and the one previous about Nelson Barbour.
Oh, and thanks for clearing up Schulz' JW affiliation.
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I want to know. Don't you?
by Old Goat insome of you are probably a bit tired of me promoting these history books, but im doing it again.
1. nelson barbour: the millenniums forgotten prophet.
de vienne is not.
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stirred but not shaken
The books OG refers to are the most comprehensive and well documented history of Russell and those who were known as associates at that time. For starters, he was never a second adventist and had almost nothing to do with Wm. Miller. He was associated with "Age to Come" believers. The dealings with some of those mentioned in the Proclaimers book such as George Stetson, Jonas Wendell, George Storrs, Henry Grew, W.H. Conley, etc., are well documented accounts. The authors are only interested in presenting the facts, and if there is no documentation for it, it won't be presented. I'm not so sure if Schulz is presently a JW..I don't think so.
The work is far, far more detailed and documented than anything the WBTS has presented or could. It is at first a bit laborious, but for those who want to know where all this came from, it is well worth the read.
After having been personally associated with the WBTS for over 60 years and being the 3rd generation, I'm still trying to unravel all the old myths. These books help put things in perspective. You will be particularly impressed with George Storrs.
Attacking statements that some have made regarding Russell and others involved in the groups previously mentioned, are passed on without verification and can and will damage credibility. These books will help those on this board who wish to comment on the WBTS history, to be accurate and more credible. I know I've learned a ton, and only about half done with the second book.
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My daughter's wedding dilemma
by RULES & REGULATIONS inmy daughter will be getting married this coming august.
she and her future husband are not jehovah's witnesses.
they will have a non-religious wedding ceremony.
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stirred but not shaken
Having been a long time elder, I can predict what the "faithful" will do, especially if any have positions of oversight. If they are not previously informed, they will feel obliged to leave, and feel justified with an impending reward for being faithful.
JW Facts mentioned "reality"...I agree, it must be faced. It would be something like inviting orthodox Jews and serving a ham dinner disguised as lamb. When they find out, they'll be incensed. "You should know better, and you tried to pull something over on us".
The caveat here might be that it is a non-witness wedding and they can invite anyone they wish, and the excusing witness will not feel that they have to be forewarned, because it is afterall, a non witness affair. They will then expect that there will be non-witness relatives and other worldly guests. If this cousin attends, they will likely take their usual position of ignoring that individual.
I was once informed by a former CO at a rather large and rather ornate reception, that if the separated and disfellowshipped husband/father appeared, we would all have to leave. He didn't, and all went well..whew.
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Charles Taze Russell
by thedog1 ini think i read somewhere, here or maybe on another forum, that somebody claimed that c.t.
russell stood on the brooklyn bridge with some others, all in white robes, in 1878, waiting for the rapture.
any truth in that?.
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stirred but not shaken
Old Goat has nailed it. The book (the second in a series) he refers to is by far the most comprehensive and best documented account of the history of Russell and the Bible Students. In an attempt to vilify Russell, too many make inaccurate statements, passing on rumors as facts. This only gives the opposition the powder they need. BTW, Russell was never an adventist.